Allow me to embarrass myself:
When I can’t sleep at night, I think about food.
I analyze recipes. I scrutinize them. I think about ingredients and techniques and plan out what I’m going to make in the morning. For whatever reason, I find comfort in this soothing mechanism because it tires out my mind. And I enjoy it.
This isn’t something new- it all stared when my youngest son was born. He had severe colic and screamed his head off from 6am- 6pm for six weeks straight. It was mental torture. There was no sleeping, no showering, no putting him down. I thought about food to stay sane. It distracted me. During this time I taught myself the metric system, demystified sourdough, scribbled recipe ideas on the back of junk mail, and dreamed of an heirloom garden. Was I going mad? Probably. But in retrospect, this otherwise noisy difficult time in my life turned out to be surprisingly productive.
Three years later…
I exhibit the same behavior.
This recipe was born in the wee hours of the morning after my cat woke me up. I let him outside, and made a pit stop in the kitchen to feed my sourdough starter before returning to bed. I would bake in the morning.
This is sourdough noir.
Bread… with dark chocolate.
To begin, I added cocoa powder to my already existing recipe for country sourdough.
Round #1: Plain
Round #2: Chopped Chocolate Chunks
Round #3: Chocolate Chips, Dried Fruit + Nuts
The Geeky Stuff:
- My sourdough starter is 50/50 whole wheat + bread flour (fed at 100% hydration)
- 1 hour autolyse
- Salt and fillings added after autolyse
- Stretch and fold every 30 minutes for 2 hours
- Bulk ferment at room temperature (currently 65 F) overnight, about 12-18 hours
- 2nd proof = approximately 45 minutes- 1 hour
- Bake in Dutch oven at 400 F for 20 minutes (covered) + 40 minutes (uncovered)
- Crack open the oven door during the last 10 minutes of baking to harden the crust
For my bread posts, I always like to include this in-depth beginner’s guide to sourdough for your reference.
**PS: If you’d like more information on sourdough baking, including how to create a sourdough starter, all new recipes, shaping techniques, and scoring patterns, click here for my upcoming book: Artisan Sourdough Made Simple. Thank you for your support!
x Emilie
Tips:
sourdough noir
Author: The Clever Carrot
Serves: 1 or 2 loaves
Ingredients
- 150g active fed starter
- 350g water, preferably filtered
- 50g sugar
- 1 tsp. vanilla extract or 1 vanilla pod, seeds scraped
- 500g bread flour
- 50g cocoa powder*
- 8g fine sea salt
- 65g chopped walnuts
- 65g raisins
- 150g semi sweet chocolate chips
- fine ground cornmeal, for dusting
- powdered sugar for decoration
* I used Hershey's Special Dark, a blend of natural and Dutch process cocoas
** You will need 1 or 2 Dutch ovens for baking
Instructions
- Make the dough: In a large bowl combine the starter, water, sugar and vanilla. Stir with a fork. Sift the bread flour and cocoa powder together and then add to the bowl. Squish everything together with your hands until all of the flour is absorbed. Cover with plastic wrap and let it rest (autolyse) for 1 hour.
- To the dough: Add the salt, walnuts, raisins and chocolate chips. Lift and fold the dough over itself several times and squish with your hands to incorporate. The dough will tear slightly as you fold and the salt will not fully dissolve. Don't worry- this is normal. Work the dough as best you can until it comes back together into a rough ball.
- Bulk fermentation: Cover your bowl with plastic wrap and a clean kitchen towel. Leave it in a warm, sunny spot to rise. Your dough is ready when it no longer looks dense and has increased in volume about 1½- 2x its original size. This can take anywhere from 3-12 hours depending on the temperature of your ingredients, the potency of your starter and surrounding environment. *See note below.
- Stretch & fold: To strengthen your dough, do a series of stretch and folds every 30 minutes for the first 2 hours of bulk fermentation. Simply gather a portion of the dough, stretch it upwards and then fold it over itself. Rotate the bowl ¼ turn and repeat until you have come full circle. You will have completed 4 folds. Try to keep the fillings tucked into the dough and not on the outside. This will prevent burning when baked.
- Shape the dough: To cut and shape the dough, divide your work surface in half; lightly flour one side (for cutting) and leave the other half clean (for shaping).
- Remove the dough from the bowl and place onto the floured section. You do not need to 'punch down' the dough; it will gently deflate as you fold and shape it.
- Cut the dough in half to make 2 loaves, or leave it whole for a single loaf. I prefer two small loaves as they're easier to shape and I like to freeze whatever we don't eat.
- To shape, use a bench scraper to move your dough to the non-floured section (if there is any flour present it will be difficult to shape- brush away any excess). Gather the dough, one side at a time, and fold it into the center. Flip the dough over and place it seam side down. Using your hands, gently cup the sides of the dough and rotate it using quarter turns in a circular motion. You can also pull it towards you to even out its shape. Repeat this process until you are happy with its appearance.
- Second rise: Place your dough(s) into a cloth lined basket, bowl, or floured brotform. It will need to rise again, about 45 minutes to 1 hour. It is ready when the dough is slightly puffy.
- Preparing the baking vessel: Preheat your oven to 400F. Generously coat the bottom of a Dutch oven(s) with cornmeal to prevent sticking. Carefully invert the dough into the pot. Use your hand to gently guide it in.
- Slash the dough: Right before your bread goes into the oven, make a shallow slash about 2 inches long in the center of the dough. Use a bread lame, sharp pairing or serrated knife.
- Bake the bread: Place your bread into the oven (lid on) and bake for 20 minutes. Remove the lid, and continue to bake (uncovered) for an additional 40 minutes. During the last 10 minutes of baking, crack open the oven door. This allows the moisture to escape, leaving your bread with a crisp crust.
- You can also take the internal temperature of your bread to double check that it is done. For sourdough, it should read about 205 F.
- Cooling: Remove the bread from the oven, and cool on a wire rack for at least an hour before slicing.
- Dust with powdered sugar before serving.
Notes
* Because sourdough does not contain commercial yeast, it takes considerably longer to rise. In the summer months, it can take anywhere between 3-4 hours @ 85 F whereas in the winter, about 6-12 hours @ 55 F. In the winter, I make my dough in the afternoon and leave it to rise overnight at room temperature. In the warmer months, I bulk ferment in the fridge to control and slow down the rise rate.
JJ - 84thand3rd says
I should be sleeping yet now all I can think about is chocolate, fruit and nut bread… Sounds stunning!
Emilie says
Don’t even talk to me about NOT sleeping! Story of my life + thinking about recipes. Or scrolling through Instagram. I am cursed. You make such lovely bread JJ, you will definitely have fun with a chocolate version. Perhaps with that vegan butter of yours…
Laura (Tutti Dolci) says
Gorgeous, all I can think about is that rich chocolate flavor! :)
Emilie says
Hi Laura! I tried this recipe with Hershey’s Special Dark- a blend of natural & Dutch process cocoas and I was very pleased the the result. Normally I’m a Ghirardelli girl or even Green & Blacks. But I like this cocoa powder. It lends not only flavor, but that coveted dark chocolate color. Chocolate for days… ;)
Kelly @ Inspired Edibles says
Wow, Emilie, you make my want to bake bread (and that’s big!) ~ when I first saw this gorgeous, dark loaf I assumed that it was rye (naive, right? ;-) ) — the chocolate brings it to a whole other level. So unique and what a treat – I would love this around the holidays (I would try a version with macadamia me thinks). Beautiful too. Please keep up your wakeful dreaming!
Emilie says
Yay! I’m going to convert you. The biggest misconception with bread baking is that it’s time consuming- and yes, it is. But most of the time is hands off, waiting for the dough to rise. It’s a rhythm that needs to be established more than anything else. Once you get going, it’s hard to turn back! I have a feeling you would excel at this my dear. And no, you are not naive for thinking that this was rye! I wanted it to look rich and dark ;) Love your festive macadamia version. Shall I make you one? xx
Kris says
I am SO glad that I found your blog, if only for this recipe alone! I can’t wait to try it. I stupidly let my sourdough starter die a couple of months ago, but I’ve been thinking of getting it going again. I miss the act of baking bread. It’s such a grounding and rewarding experience. I am so looking forward to trying this. Also, the name rocks!! :)
Emilie says
Hi Kris! Me too! Baking bread truly is a rewarding experience. With a little time and planning you can turn out the most delicious loaves with simple ingredients. When we moved into our new house I completely neglected both of my sourdough starters after religiously feeding them once or twice a week. The liquid on the top was black (eww). But surprisingly, I was able to revive both of them by pouring out most of the starter, reserving just a tiny bit at the bottom. It was alive and kickin’ within two feeds. I hope you get yours going again :)
Merryl Chantrell says
I can empathise with you about your son and his problems with Colic. Even though my son is now 35 we went through a similar experience when he was a baby and honestly you really do think you are going mad.
Emilie says
Hi Merryl! Sorry to hear that you experienced colic with your son as well. I can certainly relate. Although he’s big and grown up now it’s something you never, ever forget. My friend recently had a baby and when I was in the hospital visiting her, there was a baby next door screaming its head off… for 2 hours straight. I think I started twitching ;)
jaime : the briny says
your sourdough noir is gorgeous and so so creative! i love the idea of a dark “noir” bread born out of quiet moments late at night.
Emilie says
You hit the nail on the head, Jaime! A little midnight recipe creating and noir bread was born. If only I could be this productive during the day-ha! :)
Pam Green says
This is so unique! What a creative idea and it looks delicious!
Emilie says
Thank you Pam! I really do love to bake bead. I’m happy my dodgy oven has been co-perating ;)
Celia Becker @ After Orange County says
You really are “clever”. I am a bread baker too. I have a sourdough starter that my friend made over 20 years ago and it’s still going strong. I can relate to getting up in the middle of the night to feed it. I look forward to trying your recipe.
Emilie says
You are?! Yes! I love to talk bread. It is very special to have a starter passed down from a friend… and one that’s 20 years old is a real treat! My dear friend sent me some of hers from Australia… Enjoy the recipe, Celia! Let me know if you make it :)
laurasmess says
This looks stunning Emilie. I already adore sourdough but the idea of a deep, dark bread like this (studded with chocolate and fruit nonetheless!) is so enticing. Haha… we’re kinda similar in terms of using our ‘sleeplessness’ for recipe creation etc. I do exactly the same thing, occasionally interspersed with positive self-talk and ideas on how to relax a bit more (when at work and stressed!). Love the notes on how you worked out the kinks in this recipe. You write so, so well… and I love the photographs (there is always something relaxing about photographs of bread). Hope that you are going well, lovely. Sorry for not being in touch for so long, I am sooo behind on my blog-reading at the moment xxx
Emilie says
Darling, you don’t ever have to apologize… just make sure you’re come back! I feel like you have been gone for ages. I do enjoy watching your journey, although slightly jealous. It looks like you are having a beautiful time. Thank you for your thoughtful compliments- it’s comforting to know you’re midnight creator too. Why do have to live so far away?! ;) xx
K / Pure & Complex says
I LOVE sourdough bread but I’ve always been afraid to bake it. But I definitely have to give your recipe a try. Hopefully mine comes out as spectacular as yours
Emilie says
I know, the thought of baking sourdough can sound very intimidating, especially if you’ve never baked before. It took me many, many, many tries to get it to where I wanted it to be. And I’m still learning. It’s more of an art than an actual recipe and if you’re committed, it suddenly becomes second nature. My beginner’s tutorial is a great place to reference if you are just starting out. If you have any questions I’m happy to help :)
Christine says
This looks completely delicious! Making bread is such a lovely ritual, and your beautiful loaf is just stunning!
Emilie says
Welcome Christine! Thank you very much! I agree with you- baking bread is such a wonderful ritual, I am quite addicted myself. Are you a baker as well?
Christine says
Thanks Emilie :) I do love to bake, but it doesn’t necessarily come naturally to me. I often need to experiment before I’m satisfied with the results but the experimenting is part of the fun so it’s okay with me!
Emilie says
That’s the best way! I think we can only learn with practice (and failures!) and enjoying the process is what’s it’s all about. I’m right there with you :)
Joybee says
This looks amazing. I love sourdough breads and chocolate just compliments the sourness. I bet it would be great with dried cherries. Pinned.
Emilie says
Thank you! I love how you think! It’s so funny you mention cherries- I actually debated whether or not to throw them into the dough. My kids were eating them so I chose not to rock the boat ;)
Aarthi says
Wow! Rich, chocolately bread with nuts.. This is going on my baking list..
Emilie says
Welcome Aarthi! Have fun with the recipe! If you like chocolate and bread you can’t go wrong with this one :)
David Crichton says
Hi Emilie
This looks seriously amazing. What’s the best way of doing this without sourdough starter. I appreciate it will change the taste a bit.
Thanks
Dave
Emilie says
Hi David! That’s a great question- I haven’t made this bread without using a sourdough starter. However, if you’d like to experiment, I would take my recipe for No-Knead Artisan Bread and add 1/4 c. cocoa powder + all of the fillings (found in this recipe). The above link would be your best bet, but like I said, I haven’t done it myself! Do let me know how it turns out. Happy Baking :)
Adri says
This sounds fabulous, and your bread posts are truly wonderful. Congratulations on some really superior work.
Emilie says
Thank you darling. This would be mighty fine with a nice espresso and good company ;) xx
Greg Leverich says
I Really Like Chocolate Chips.its so nutty and flavor full, thanks for sharing amazing recipe with us.
Emilie says
You are quite welcome! I love chocolate/bread anything so the combo was a natural progression! Any leftovers make a fabulous bread pudding ;)
Holly Masri says
This recipe looks really wonderful! I wonder, though, whether I might be able to adapt it to 100% whole wheat? I’ve been making all whole wheat sourdough for the past year, and am (finally) getting pretty consistently good results. I’m guessing the main difference would be that I’d need to do either some kneading, or more stretch-and-folds. Any experience/suggestions in this area?
Emilie says
Hello Holly! Thank you :)
Although I’ve never tried this recipe with 100% whole wheat, I don’t see why not!
Here’s what I would do:
1.) Increase the autolyse period to about 1- 2 1/2 hours. This is important when working with whole grain flours.
2.) After autolyse, do a series of stretch & folds every 1/2 hour. This will strengthen the dough.
3.) Bulk ferment overnight (this eliminates the need for extra kneading).
Because you have experience with whole wheat, you’ll know by feel if the dough needs extra water. Make adjustments to the recipe as needed if it seems dry. Also, I would soak the fruit and nuts during the autolyse period.
Good luck! Do let me know how it turns out! Happy baking :)
Sandra Art says
Hi Emilie,
I tried making this last night and it was so yummy and it looked pretty close to your pictures! I used parchment paper in my Dutch oven as I didn’t want to take the risk that the dough will stick to the bottom of my pan and it turned out very good, even better than the pain au chocolate that we used to get from our local grocery store! In your picture, there seems to be white/yellowish powder on the surface of the bread, is that from the powdered sugar or from the cornmeal? I just dusted it with AP flour just like when I do my regular no knead white bread. Also, how long can you refrigerate the dough and how long should I thaw it prior to baking? Thanks so much for the recipe!
Emilie says
Hi Sandra!
Wow! That’s fantastic! Oh my goodness, I’m so glad you had success with the recipe. Thank you so much for the feedback :)
If memory serves me correctly, the white/yellow powder is a combo of flour (a little got on top before it was baked, then turned yellow as a result of the heat) and the white is powdered sugar.
The length of refrigeration will vary. I won’t let it go longer than 2-3 days. It’s rising strength will all depend on how powerful your starter is; mine is resilient! You might have to play around with this depending on your starter type. But for the modern schedule, it’s nice to have dough in the fridge ready to be baked when time permits.
When you do take it out of the fridge, let it ‘thaw’ for at least an hour (time will vary as the weather begins to warm up- still snowing here). I find that baking room temperature bread yields lighter and fluffier results than cold bread, although professional bakers bake cold all the time. Just my preference!
Keep me posted! Have a great weekend :)
Mae says
I made it today! Still sitting on table to cool…. Will have it for my breakfast:) I’ve been following your sourdough recipe then I spotted your noir version in Pinterest! So here I made it… Smell great! I’ve got caramel sauce in fridge planning to eat it with caramel sauce:) thank you… Would love to try more of your sourdough recipe :)
Joanne says
Thank you for sharing this gorgeous recipe! Inspired by your bread I made my own version of the recipe. I didn’t have the required amount of chocolate so I substituted the lacking amount with white chocolate (maybe a quarter of total amount) that I happened to have in my cupboard. Pecans instead of walnuts. Honey instead of sugar. 100 g of the flour I used was emmer wheat. And I made two small loaves and baked them on a pizza stone. It turned out great – and very chocolate-y! Yum!!
Emilie says
Wow! Joanne, that sounds amazing! I love everything about your version- white chocolate, pecans, honey- delicious! Do you have a picture? I’d love to see! Thanks for taking the time to leave feedback, I really appreciate it :)
Ayesha Ahmad says
Emilie – this looks heavenly. I’m definitely going to try it this weekend (btw – ever since I discovered your post on sourdough – a beginner’s guide, about 6 weeks ago, I’ve been making bread at home with great success :)
So three questions about this recipe:
1) Can you skip the sugar altogether? Or does that make the taste of cocoa overwhelming?
2) Can you also skip the chocolate chips?
3) Can you make this with 100% all purpose sourdough starter instead of doing the 50/50?
Thank you so much! Can’t wait to try this on the weekend.
Emilie says
Hi there!
That’s fantastic- I’m so happy to hear that! Isn’t baking bread something truly special?
For this recipe, I wouldn’t skip the sugar. The bread is not sweet; it just offsets the cocoa. You can experiment with different kids of sugar, if you’d like. You can definitely skip the chocolate chips, but it really adds dimension and textural interest to the loaf. Plus, it brings out the cocoa flavor. Perhaps use a little less than skip it altogether. And for the starter, it’s totally fine to use what you have.
Hope this helps, Ayesha. Have fun baking this weekend :)
Kimberly K says
Quick question – is the baking time of 20 covered/40 uncovered for the single large loaf? Or is it about the same regardless of the size?
I think I’m going to try it with dried cherries in place of the raisins. Or it might be good with a little candied orange peel – chocolate and orange is such a wonderful combination…
Emilie says
Hi Kimberly,
It’s the same baking time (covered & uncovered) regardless of size!
Dried cranberries will be perfect. I love cranberries with chocolate. And yes- you could try a little candied orange peel as well. All 3 would make a wonderful combo. Make it your own! I’m excited to hear how it comes out :) xo
Shawna says
On the second rise, I usually let it rise in my baking vessel. Should I not?
What is the benefit of the second rise in the cloth lined basket vs. what it will be baked in?
Is it to prevent sticking?
I am looking forward to this bread tomorrow!
Emilie says
Hi Shawna,
Generally speaking- the second rise can be done either way depending on the type of dough you are working with.
For example, in comparison to the original sourdough bread (the one you’ve been baking) this chocolate dough is particularly wet. It contains 100g more water.
Wet doughs tend to spread out to the sides when rising. They’re still rising, just in a different manner. Therefore, the benefit of a cloth lined basket or banneton is that it will contain the dough’s shape during the second rise. Doing the second rise in your baking vessel is not preferred because it will spread too much, yielding flat bread. Does that make sense? Hope this helps!
d forrest says
Absolutely awesome recipe, thanks so much the combination of the sour crust with the chocolate inside is amazing. this’ll be repeated many times
Sarah Bees says
I love love LOVED this bread. It turned out beautifully!! This is definitely being added to my bread rotation :)
runnerfemme says
I made this yesterday and today with the following variations: I used dried cherries soaked for an hour or so in hot water, toasted pecans, Guittard dark chocolate chunks, and Dutch process cocoa. I also doubled the recipe and used some of the soaking water for the hydration. My husband is ooooing and aahhhhing right now over his decadent toast! Thank you for such wonderful inspiration!
Mai says
Thank you! This recipe has my friends crazy about it and asking for more when I baked it. Thanks! I almost wished you’ll have another sleepless night and come up with another brilliant recipe!
Deon says
Hi Emilie,
This looks gorgeous and like you, I’ve been baking my own sourdough for a few weeks now. I would love to try out your recipe. May I ask you a few qns:
1. Can the starter be directly from the fridge? Or do u feed it till u have 150g to start with?
2. Can I just use a normal tray to bake this? Is a Dutch over completely necessary?
Thank you!
Emilie says
Hello Deon,
Thank you for your note! To answer your questions, see below:
1.) For best results, your starter should be at room temperature before using. Feed it until it’s bubbly and active, then measure out 150 g for your recipe.
2.) You can use a normal tray, but you’ll need to create steam. All ovens are different and without added moisture, sometimes the crust will set too quickly which can hinder the rise of your bread. Try it and see how it goes.
Eric L. Noak says
OMG! So glad that,I finally made this! SPECTACULAR!
Jordan Chandler says
This is the only sourdough noir recipe I use. I use my base recipe for the sourdough and then add all the extras. Comes out amazing.
Sun Sun says
Great recipe, especially the sourdough starter basics guidance. I admit upfront that I really dislike people leaving ratings or likes/dislikes when they don’t follow the exact recipe, at least at first. I am about to this anyway. I made one modification on this recipe and if it didn’t turn out well, I would have redone with exact recipe first but it is quite yummy so am happy to report that I replaced the full anount of filtered water with equal amount of Guiness stout. It worked out great and gave an additional malty taste to complement the chocolate flavor so I would highly recommend it. Of particular note, I didn’t have the dark cocoa so the stout boosted the desired dark coloration as well as the additional bitterness.
Alex says
Found my way here via Reddit and this looks gorgeous. I think I’ll give it a whirl this weekend, though I’ll probably just adjust my weekend French loaf recipe since Im about as good at keeping starters alive as I am at plants (and my husband has as a result forbidden me from keeping my “rotten science experiments” in the house XD)
One question, the Dutch oven, what does it do? I have one but Ive never used it for bread. Whats the gain of using one over just chucking it on a stone?
Emilie says
Hi Alex,
A Dutch oven creates steam for the bread to rise. Because all ovens are different, and some hold steam better than others, using the Dutch oven eliminates any potential variables. If your bread comes out just fine on a pizza stone, you’re good to go! However, if you do have a Dutch oven or a similar oven-safe pot, I encourage you to give it a try; the results are excellent.
Kyle says
This looks excellent! Going to try a variation of this for a mother’s day loaf. Will replace the raisens with sour cherries, replace sugar with less honey, and add some espresso powder to the recipe. Thanks for the inspiration. Wish me luck!
Sheila says
Can u use regular cocoa with a pinch of baking soda instead of Dutch. I can’t wait to try this recipe.
Emilie says
Hi Sheila! Hmm… you know I’m not sure. I’ve never tested it! I can’t see why it wouldn’t work (although you never know with baking). Sorry I’m not any help! If you experiment, please let me know; your feedback might help others with the same question. x
Binkie says
Autolysing is the process by which the enzymes (amylase and protease) in the flour activate in water and break down the starch and protein. If you want better results, don’t let anything interfere with that process – not cocoa, not sugar, and especially not yeast (or starter) because it will start feeding immediately. Mix ONLY the flour and water and let it autolyse for at least one hour and optimally two hours.
Also, look into what diastatic malt powder can do for your breads. You can make your own by sprouting, drying, and grinding wheat or barley.
Cheers
Emilie says
Hi there! You know, I used to follow the same method (adding additional ingredients only after autolyse). And as you’ve mentioned above, and I experienced good results. However, as my journey progressed my method changed to suit my schedule, hence the different instructions here. But that’s what I love about sourdough! It truly is a flexible craft and it encourages conversation and sharing. Thank you for sharing your tips here! PS: I’ve played around with diastatic malt too. It sure does make a notable difference!
Genine says
I am new to Sourdough baking ( my starter is about 4 weeks old) So far I have baked several things with my sourdough but this recipe by far is my favorite! I couldn’t even wait for it to cool completely (did give it 30 minutes) Thank you so much for the wonderful directions and helpful hints. I read them all! so blessed to have found your site! by the way…made mine with sliced almonds and semi-sweet chips. It is yummy! I do have a question and would like your suggestion, I use my cast iron enamel pot as directed and some of my loaves are getting really dark on the bottom. I wouldn’t call it burnt, but overdone. What do you suggest to remedy that? Thanks again!
FLora says
Hi there, the temperature of my apt is always around 76-80 degrees. Will the proofing time/bread be affected by it? That temperature works pretty well for my starter :)
Judith Mingram says
Can’t wait to try this! Can I assume you dutch oven is cold when you put the dough in? Thank you!
Emilie says
Hi Judith, yes! The Dutch Oven is cold when it goes into the oven. Some bakers preheat their pots, and I’ve done so in the past, but I no longer do it now. I get excellent results this way!
filip yared says
Hello, just find ur recipe, verry detailled instructions, however needs to ask one question, is there needed to preheat the Dutch oven as well, thx
Jessica says
Can the dough be placed in the fridge for the second rise? if so, for how long?